I am so glad that young people are getting to explore this a lot more these days (while also being deeply saddened and scared by the disturbing backlash against this). (I did write a whole two paragraphs about our kids and their friends, before reminding myself that these are not my stories to share. Suffice it to say, though, that we have plenty of people in our lives for whom this topic is very important.)
I would have loved to be able to explore gender at their age. And sexuality, actually, which was something we were banned from learning about in school at the time. I have always questioned gender rules and stereotypes. As Chris was telling our kids the other day, I was ‘a ladette’ in the 90s. I genuinely enjoyed hanging out in the pub with guys more than women, and found, at the time, the conversations so much more up my street (except when they started talking about sport, actually). In most mixed-gender gatherings you would find me in a group of men, and not in a being ogled kind of way, in a fitting in and being heard and often drinking them under the table, too! (There was another woman who was similar in a lot of ways, but she was a ‘hottie’ and therefore got treated differently. And I realise now that the attitude of the blokes toward the two of us was pretty bloody outrageous. I got to be ‘one of the lads’ but she got to ‘hang out with the lads’ because she looked too feminine to not be a distraction. Jeez!)
These days, literally all my closest friends are women, and all of them mothers, and our conversations are wide ranging but often centred on the experience of our gender and age, and frequently end up with the words ‘…is a feminist issue’. We do talk about wider politics, but it frequently ends up back at all the crap we have had to deal with. Because Chris isn’t really much of a socialiser, we don’t really have couple friends like a lot of people do, and I haven’t been active in politics for ages (where I got the ‘pleasure’ of being mansplained to over and over again) or a parent governor (which was much more a space for the dads, while the PTA was more a space for the mums), so my exposure to men on a social level is minimal these days.
I think ‘me too’ has actually pushed me a lot toward leaning very much into my female friendships. The realisation and fear of how men look at women means I feel less and less comfortable in predominantly male spaces. And I definitely think that most questioning I have had of my own gender has had its basis not in feeling like I am not my gender, but in hating what society has pushed onto me purely because of my gender. Although it is also mixed up in sexuality, for me, because that also isn’t straightforward and I never know whether that is to do with society too!
I deleted a whole other paragraph there, because of another story that is not mine to tell. But it was about a friend’s journey from terf to ally. And her widening attempts to help others change their attitude. And I have understood that for a lot of women, this attitude stems from a lifetime’s experience (often personal experience) of male violence, and especially sexual violence. Trauma-based fear leads to not being able to understand that trans women are not the threat, and are far more likely to be at even more risk of violence.
I genuinely believe that the widening acceptance of exploring gender, and sexuality during teenage years and discussing them and having books about them and TV shows and films, will lead to much more openness and acceptance and understanding over the next few decades. I wish we could jump forwards so that we could skip the current awful attitudes towards trans people to the point where they can just live their lives as human beings.
Yeah I think that dynamic is common, if you're not the typically pretty one you get treated way differently.... I honestly loved being one of the lads, it took me a long time to even realize what feminism was going on about, or why it was bad to be told 'you're not like the other girls' (like, I really wasn't, it kinda made sense, but I wasn't seeing the derision behind it... I was very naive for a really long time) And I really didn't get on with girls but I get on famously with women. I think it's because girls seemed to be very invested in performing a certain type of feminine personality, and the women I know and am friends with today are flourishing and unbothered in all their complexity.
I have friends who center a lot of conversations on feminist stuff and that's another complex one for me. Like of course yes to feminism but I've also been becoming keenly aware of how much white feminism in particular has been problematic and alienating, like there is a type approach to white feminism where it's supposed to be the only issue that supersedes all other issues and that really doesn't work for me.... like we are seeing the decline of western morality in real time with all the genocides and racist violence and I can't still be focused on whether guys move out of the way or not when I'm walking on the sidewalk, you know? It doesn't seem like the crucial thing. But of course it's a massive tangle of everything.
I totally agree that sexuality is another weird one where you really don't get to explore a lot in a safe or structured sort of way... like my parents gave me zero hints, it was like go out there and work it out for yourself somehow and boy did that not go all that well, hahah. Rocky road for sure. From today's perspective it seems insane to me. I find it so weird how uptight we are in general and how weird and unaccepting of the fact that we have bodies and can do things with those bodies that are fun and nice.
I do think the younger generations will have a way healthier relationship both with their gender and with their sexuality because of the increasing acceptance and information that's out there... but also things are getting very explicit very early for them and just the fact that you can see all sorts of unspeakable things online that are supposed to represent sexual relationships when they're really not.... Like the kids still need us to tell them about the respectful, safe, non-degrading type of sexual relationships because the internet sure isn't providing that part......
Yeah I also don't have couple friends with my husband, I have a lot of women friends and, like, one or two men friends I haven't lost touch with over the years. I've definitely found women to be way more dedicated to maintaining friendships and putting in that emotional work it takes to stay close.
Agender person here. I defined myself as non-binary for a long time before deciding agender is a more accurate description of how i experience gender internally. I love how you've framed this whole exploration of gender. I don't know if this helps or not, but a thought I have on your overall question is this: two of the things that make discussions and explorations about gender so confusing is 1) culturally, we tend to conflate gender and sexuality. They are related, but are not the same thing (the right tends to confuse the two much more often than the right, but it still happens even in progressive environments sometimes). 2) culturally, we tend not to be aware of the difference between gender, gender expression, and gender roles. For example, your husband's response that he just feels like a man even though he doesn't adhere to cultural expectations of "man" makes perfect sense if you consider him as a person whose gender is male, but whose gender expression doesn't conform closely to this culture's prescribed gender roles. From what you've said about yourself, it sounds like you are also not comfortable conforming to the expected gender role, and so you express your gender in some ways that aren't viewed as feminine by cultural standards. All of that can possibly impact - but is not necessarily related to - how you experience your gender internally. This is just my own observation, and it may be wrong, but I'm confident there are no more trans, nonbinary, or agender kids than there used to be. It's just that as much as there is still horrendous bias against people with non-conforming genders, it's not quite as taboo as it used to be, and there is both more information readily available, and more resources available so that kids who aren't comfortable with their birth assignment are more likely than they were in the past to realize there are other options than spending their whole life shoved into a gender that doesn't feel right to them. Some people have found this site has some basic helpful info for understanding the different facets of sexuality and gender (including a cute little coloring book!): https://transstudent.org/gender/
That's such an interesting difference between non-binary and agender, I had never really considered it before but I can see how it's different.
Yes, I think you are spot on with the conflation point. And the gender/ gender expression/ gender roles distinction is so helpful. That's exactly it, I'm fine with my gender but have zero interest in following societal gender roles since my natural gender expression is kind of all over the place ever since childhood. I think my husband is similar but perhaps holds more closely to the typical male societal role because I think for them society makes a much bigger deal of not adhering.....
I remember when my kid was really small, like three and a half, he had such wonderfully chaotic likes and preferences - he loved gems and jewelry, dinosaurs, fire trucks, unicorns, and the color lavender. One time he got into an argument with another equally tiny girl in a shoe store because she was telling him he should be taking the blue shoes, since he is a boy, and he was trying to explain to her he already has blue ones, and really likes the lavender Mary Janes. She protested 'but they're PURPLE!' to which he disgustedly retorted 'They're NOT purple, they're LAVENDER.' :) He also had a lot of arguments with his best friend over why he has unicorn figurines. The friend didn't know how to phrase the question but was presumably confused by the fact that the unicorns were seen as a girl toy... so he would keep asking 'Luka, why do you have a unicorn, Luka? Why do you have one?' And Lu looked at him with all the scorn a three and a half year old can muster and replied 'To make my house more beautiful, Gvozden.' He never took any bull :)
I absolutely agree with your last point too - I also think there were no fewer trans/ agender/ nonbinary people just like I think there were no fewer ADHD, autistic and other neurodiverse people... We just have the tools to understand and express ourselves better now... Besides society did so much covering up before - like 'the aunt that never married and was roommates with her best friend her whole life' yeah ok. Or the grandpa who always sits in the same chair and gets very upset if someone else sits in it and has a massive train collection in the basement, yeah totally neurotypical, sure.
There was way more pressure to conform so people conformed.
Thanks for the resource, I'll have fun browsing that!!
Kat - I do not mean stereotypes. You are the one who is trolling, using disinformation embraced by people who's lack of empathy and imagination makes them fearful of people who experience the world differently than they do. Not everyone is just like you. Deal with it.
This is very nice way to frame it. As a gay man I had a youth with all people telling me that gay men weren't men really. They even had many names for it! As I've always felt liks a man without the need to behave like my soccer-playing peers, it took me some hard work and time to de-socialice and re-socialize myself.
And I'm not so sure the boys and girls growing up right now are doing so without pressures, expectations and reject.
Of course gay men are men, it's right there in the name :)
This obsession people have with telling other people who or what they are is very very strange. And yes, I absolutely think today's kids are facing it too, but it also feels like they are learning to support each other and stand up to it more than we did in my generation, and that's definitely a step forward.
It's very weird to me what things we tend to tie to the word 'man'. Like, 'courage', or 'confidence'. Like a woman can't be courageous or a man has to be confident. This very idea that you can 'lose your man card' if you don't act manly enough is again so much hidden misogyny.... Like you have to earn being a man, if not you get downgraded into lesser things, like women. It's a very toxic way of thinking and I am very glad we are slowly shaking it off. I wish it went a little less slowly.
Its not going slowly. In 'social' media it is going backwards thanks to the trans-troyan horse - back to square one of well known old homophobia. And, sadly, the warriors to this new crusade are mostly women.
But, outside the virtuality of internet, I think you are right: young girls and boys have a whole new language to fight for them in real, analog world.
yes the internet is becoming a separate country almost. With, like, all the worst people.
The trans thing is blowing my mind. It feels like some sort of religious fanaticism, the way these women go into hysterics over it. Running around screaming at people, calling everyone morons and idiots, it's really quite scary.
I think it also depends what circles you're in, like of course I see the ugly things but I have so many amazing people on my feeds with really healthy normal takes, then you run into the wrong comment section and you're like 'holy hell I took a wrong turn somewhere who the heck are these people'
This is so amazing. I was tomboyish too, and didn’t have girl family members to play with, just boys. I preferred boys because like you, I noticed they did fun stuff that I liked to do.
As I neared teenager times, my mother pushed REALLY HARD for “more femininity”, but I resisted just as hard and didn’t see anything the matter with how I was; I was clearly “a girl”. Same with physical development etc.
Now that I’m “old” I present woman way harder, but I really just want to be a forest witch and be left alone😂
I had the same path but without the pushing. I presented very tomboyish as a girl and then very womanish as a young woman when I had the freedom to choose my own wardrobe and such. Now I genuinely think I present as 'person', I love dresses but, like, I will shop for pants in the men's section... I also leaned into mildly alternative stuff like multicolor hair and tattoos and such very late in life, like around forty and onwards, and that has been very joyful. I think I sort of dress today like the kid me wanted to dress but couldn't swing it because she didn't have income hahah.
But I have definitely swung from hanging out with boys to having pretty much only women friends. Wasn't any sort of conscious choice, it just sort of flowed that way. I think I connected with women more than I did with girls because women have the freedom to be what the girls couldn't.... For a lot of us that self-consciousness is gone and we're just like 'listen this is me, deal with it' and it's much more conducive to friendships. Women make amazing friends, I wouldn't survive without mine.
Interesting perspective. While I know I'm male, I'm also far from a 'traditional masculine' stereotype. At the same time my black-and-white thinking has a difficult time untangling sex and gender being one-and-the-same or different things altogether. Though I do understand there are physical differences, and societal roles/expectations--mostly dated!.
Exactly, it’s a weird tangle and I think it comes mostly from the fact that we formed a society that wants to use gender to assure people are fitting inside their allotted box… I agree a lot of it is dated, but do you as a guy not encounter pressure to be tough (physically or emotionally), not complain, not show too much feeling? I feel that’s still everywhere, the ‘boys don’t cry’ thing. And for women it’s the ‘be elegant/ subtle/ well groomed’. These things are deep in our psyche.
I also have trouble divorcing sex from gender, I guess the way I see it is physical vs psychological - body parts vs how you feel about yourself? But yeah it’s all weirdly muddled and really doesn’t need to be.
Yeah, I agree. And on one hand, while categorizing people can be limiting, it can also be...helpful? With me, I sometimes find difficulty in ambiguity. Oh yes, those points are very relatable to me--I internalized them for so long that it broke me, and I became vulnerable, and am better for it. WAY too deep in our psyche, but then I think about characters like Aragorn and remember that to be stagnant is to be...unfulfilled.
I see what you mean there, too. Accepting notions at face value is tricky for me, especially if it goes against what I've been ingrained to think. And I realize that doesn't make it right, either.
that older girl from your childhood sounds really cool and I'm going to try doing that now when I speak Russian - sadly it will probably just make me sound even more like a foreigner 😅 the concept of non-binary or trans people in gendered languages is a fascinating one and it's interesting to see how some languages are adapting to it (eg. creating new pronouns for gender neutral as I think Swedish has done) while others still force the binary choice on their speakers
as a kid I personally loved hobbies from both sides of the gender equation - getting dirty in the garden but also making long stories about dolls - but didn't much like making friends with either boys or girls (probably more because of neurodivergence) 😂 as an adult I now identify as she/they and call myself cis but also sometimes non-binary? it's confusing and our society really conflates gender identity and gender expression and I often express my gender as very feminine and I have never felt like my body has any wrong parts but I have to say I don't feel like I'm a "woman" by society's standards and if given the choice I would gladly be neither male nor female but I still want to dress like a pretty girl?? because what are clothes but just cosplay?
at the end of the day though I just don't get why some people can't let it go and feel like they are entitled to know and pass judgement on what's in everyone else's underwear. it's just not that important!!
Clothes are absolutely just cosplay!! ⭐️ I definitely feel everything you wrote. I honestly understand our general confusion around gender way better than I understand why anyone actually cares. Like….. what do they think will happen if I don’t always think of myself as strictly female?? Isn’t it pretty normal to have mixed interests since the very idea of ‘girl things’ and ‘boy things’ as some sort of exclusive categories is sort of made up nonsense?
It is very interesting when you need to grammatically declare gender in every sentence. If you start to think about it it can suddenly feel very grating.
I was about 11 and growing boobs when I began to realise I was being “seen” differently to how I saw myself. I completely hear you. Gender is very unimportant to me, it plays no part in my sense of my self; the awareness that it is a categorisation others use on me is irritating at best. But it does take a mental effort to sort of ignore gender, as in ignore that I am gendered— it comes up in various ways through your life, like people making comments, “that’s unladylike!” like you mention. And I think, depending on your personal relation to gender, you will have differing responses— for some, gender IS important and thus it matters for their well-being to present their gender identity openly, have it be received clearly. This is something that a trans loved one in my life experiences, for eg.
Also I really resonate with ‘it takes effort to ignore gender’. It really does!! Like if you’re put in a box and you try to ignore the box… as you try to move around freely you WILL bump into the walls of the box…..
Another one I can immediately think of— having hairless legs if I want to wear shorts. I kind of let it get spiky and a bit obvious but then there’s a point where I just know if I don’t shave, people will think I’m gross. And it’s a completely unconscious knowledge, I don’t think to myself “people will think I’m gross”, I just start to feel that it’s time to maybe do the shaving thing!
Yap. I have sort of embraced the leg hair a bit, partly because with age it has calmed down a lot so I can… as a young girl I couldn’t have even considered it, for many reasons… but I do still feel bad sometimes, like sitting in a dentist’s chair the other day I thought uhh he’s gonna think I’m a cave person… So yeah, I’m fine with it being there but I have a feeling other people wouldn’t be…
Yes, both of those are so important!! I think many people feel the need to be reconfirmed in their gender - that’s why we have such popularity of gender affirming care like boob or nose jobs, hair implants, all the stuff that makes you more aligned with the ‘you’ you ideally want to be… but for many other people (like us) it’s kind of the opposite… For me anything that would make me move towards feeling more myself was usually towards a blurring of the gender lines rather than stepping deeper into my gender…
Basically I don’t think it’s bad we make categories but I do think it’s kind of harmful that we gatekeep certain categories and forcefully enforce others. When people are such beautiful and unique blends.
> Is being ‘a man’ or ‘a woman’ something intrinsically ours?
The answer is no. Gender is a social construct as the leftists say and as such it is subject to "negotiation". It's the same as being rich or tall or cool or any other identity. There's characteristics which the identity is sorta based on and people judge said characteristics and conclude their own version of your identity in their mind. Gender is just a more multifaceted identity than the ones I listed so people seem to act like it's not subject to regular identity mechanics.
So you’re saying it isn’t strictly about how you see yourself but also partially about how the people around you see you? That makes sense in a way. Like you can consider yourself rich but other people could agree or disagree with your view on it. That’s actually a very interesting way to look at it.
Lidija! Thank you for so beautifully putting into words the way I’ve felt for a while now. I fully understand why someone might go to great lengths to “feel” like their gender, but I personally don’t feel attached to mine at all, and would be perfectly content to just get rid of the concept of gender entirely. Aren’t most of us fluidly visiting “masculine” and “feminine” traits or interests or behaviors in some way?
Yes, it’s been exactly my experience that we are naturally drawn to both ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ things, and it’s really only societal pressure that makes men feel they shouldn’t ever seem soft or makes women feel they should never lift weights for fear of ‘getting too bulky’ or whatever (have been doing it for a few years and can guarantee no bulkiness yet)
I find it odd that we are so obsessed with gender definitions - or rather, I really don’t, because it’s the basic underpinning of patriarchy as a system. I was reading a lot recently about why patriarchal societies tend to defeat and conquer different forms of culture - if you are treating your women as a resource - meaning, keeping them sequestered, ‘protected’ and far from any dangerous activity, while also telling them their entire purpose is in childbearing, you end up with more people in your group. So you can overcome a society where men and women fight - and sometimes perish - side by side.
From that angle you can really understand why all the screaming about BIOLOGY becomes so important.
In another comment thread someone was explaining how no no no, you see your gender is defined by your reproductive role blah blah. Like…. yeah? My confusion about gender doesn’t come from me not being sure whether it will be me or my husband who gets pregnant…… It’s all the things we stick on around the idea of gender, and gender expression primarily. It’s the question of why some people need you to ‘prove’ what you are, like they’d take your pants down in the street if they were allowed to. What brings this type of violence? It’s a solid question.
Lady, I’m fine being berated and insulted by you in other people’s comment sections, but please go away with this rubbish from my actual page. You clearly didn’t engage with a single word I wrote. I have zero interest in your interpretation of biology. Literally zero. If you want to share something about how you personally feel about your personal gender, I will gladly listen. If not, goodbye, have a day.
Oh my STARS YES the hair! My hair has been every color there is, and many mixes of colors! I’m growing out black and white Disney Villain so I can do grey with white stripes and tips. The white stripes are real.
Omg that sounds epic. I am doing a lot of purple and blue and it makes me so happy. My husband doesn’t get it, he’s like ‘so you want people to look at you!?’ I’m like I don’t care if people look at me? I want to look at me!
I can so relate to what you're saying, Lidija. I was also a tomboy, and struggled with the gender stereotypes, even though I'm straight, and have no problem with anyone's gender identity.
I would love to see a generation of kids that are given absolutely zero gender expectations... I feel like we would see such interesting blends of likes, preferences and interests that we tend to define as 'for boys' and 'for girls'... Like the whole 'that's not for you' thing is so harmful I think. I was lucky no one really pushed me to adhere to the stereotypes.
That would be nice, I agree, Lidija. It would be so great to just be who we actually are. And I think as we get older we try to reclaim that stuff that was censored out of us. It seems a lot of men really struggle to be allowed to feel their feelings.
Yes I think women free themselves with age because we connect to each other and lean on each other and figure out which of our old beliefs were stupid and limiting… and men seem to be having a harder time with all that. Also in a sense society is more punishing towards them when they break norms…
This is so refreshingly beautiful!
I’m very touched to hear you say that ❤️
I am so glad that young people are getting to explore this a lot more these days (while also being deeply saddened and scared by the disturbing backlash against this). (I did write a whole two paragraphs about our kids and their friends, before reminding myself that these are not my stories to share. Suffice it to say, though, that we have plenty of people in our lives for whom this topic is very important.)
I would have loved to be able to explore gender at their age. And sexuality, actually, which was something we were banned from learning about in school at the time. I have always questioned gender rules and stereotypes. As Chris was telling our kids the other day, I was ‘a ladette’ in the 90s. I genuinely enjoyed hanging out in the pub with guys more than women, and found, at the time, the conversations so much more up my street (except when they started talking about sport, actually). In most mixed-gender gatherings you would find me in a group of men, and not in a being ogled kind of way, in a fitting in and being heard and often drinking them under the table, too! (There was another woman who was similar in a lot of ways, but she was a ‘hottie’ and therefore got treated differently. And I realise now that the attitude of the blokes toward the two of us was pretty bloody outrageous. I got to be ‘one of the lads’ but she got to ‘hang out with the lads’ because she looked too feminine to not be a distraction. Jeez!)
These days, literally all my closest friends are women, and all of them mothers, and our conversations are wide ranging but often centred on the experience of our gender and age, and frequently end up with the words ‘…is a feminist issue’. We do talk about wider politics, but it frequently ends up back at all the crap we have had to deal with. Because Chris isn’t really much of a socialiser, we don’t really have couple friends like a lot of people do, and I haven’t been active in politics for ages (where I got the ‘pleasure’ of being mansplained to over and over again) or a parent governor (which was much more a space for the dads, while the PTA was more a space for the mums), so my exposure to men on a social level is minimal these days.
I think ‘me too’ has actually pushed me a lot toward leaning very much into my female friendships. The realisation and fear of how men look at women means I feel less and less comfortable in predominantly male spaces. And I definitely think that most questioning I have had of my own gender has had its basis not in feeling like I am not my gender, but in hating what society has pushed onto me purely because of my gender. Although it is also mixed up in sexuality, for me, because that also isn’t straightforward and I never know whether that is to do with society too!
I deleted a whole other paragraph there, because of another story that is not mine to tell. But it was about a friend’s journey from terf to ally. And her widening attempts to help others change their attitude. And I have understood that for a lot of women, this attitude stems from a lifetime’s experience (often personal experience) of male violence, and especially sexual violence. Trauma-based fear leads to not being able to understand that trans women are not the threat, and are far more likely to be at even more risk of violence.
I genuinely believe that the widening acceptance of exploring gender, and sexuality during teenage years and discussing them and having books about them and TV shows and films, will lead to much more openness and acceptance and understanding over the next few decades. I wish we could jump forwards so that we could skip the current awful attitudes towards trans people to the point where they can just live their lives as human beings.
oh wow thank you so much for sharing all this!!!
Yeah I think that dynamic is common, if you're not the typically pretty one you get treated way differently.... I honestly loved being one of the lads, it took me a long time to even realize what feminism was going on about, or why it was bad to be told 'you're not like the other girls' (like, I really wasn't, it kinda made sense, but I wasn't seeing the derision behind it... I was very naive for a really long time) And I really didn't get on with girls but I get on famously with women. I think it's because girls seemed to be very invested in performing a certain type of feminine personality, and the women I know and am friends with today are flourishing and unbothered in all their complexity.
I have friends who center a lot of conversations on feminist stuff and that's another complex one for me. Like of course yes to feminism but I've also been becoming keenly aware of how much white feminism in particular has been problematic and alienating, like there is a type approach to white feminism where it's supposed to be the only issue that supersedes all other issues and that really doesn't work for me.... like we are seeing the decline of western morality in real time with all the genocides and racist violence and I can't still be focused on whether guys move out of the way or not when I'm walking on the sidewalk, you know? It doesn't seem like the crucial thing. But of course it's a massive tangle of everything.
I totally agree that sexuality is another weird one where you really don't get to explore a lot in a safe or structured sort of way... like my parents gave me zero hints, it was like go out there and work it out for yourself somehow and boy did that not go all that well, hahah. Rocky road for sure. From today's perspective it seems insane to me. I find it so weird how uptight we are in general and how weird and unaccepting of the fact that we have bodies and can do things with those bodies that are fun and nice.
I do think the younger generations will have a way healthier relationship both with their gender and with their sexuality because of the increasing acceptance and information that's out there... but also things are getting very explicit very early for them and just the fact that you can see all sorts of unspeakable things online that are supposed to represent sexual relationships when they're really not.... Like the kids still need us to tell them about the respectful, safe, non-degrading type of sexual relationships because the internet sure isn't providing that part......
Yeah I also don't have couple friends with my husband, I have a lot of women friends and, like, one or two men friends I haven't lost touch with over the years. I've definitely found women to be way more dedicated to maintaining friendships and putting in that emotional work it takes to stay close.
Agender person here. I defined myself as non-binary for a long time before deciding agender is a more accurate description of how i experience gender internally. I love how you've framed this whole exploration of gender. I don't know if this helps or not, but a thought I have on your overall question is this: two of the things that make discussions and explorations about gender so confusing is 1) culturally, we tend to conflate gender and sexuality. They are related, but are not the same thing (the right tends to confuse the two much more often than the right, but it still happens even in progressive environments sometimes). 2) culturally, we tend not to be aware of the difference between gender, gender expression, and gender roles. For example, your husband's response that he just feels like a man even though he doesn't adhere to cultural expectations of "man" makes perfect sense if you consider him as a person whose gender is male, but whose gender expression doesn't conform closely to this culture's prescribed gender roles. From what you've said about yourself, it sounds like you are also not comfortable conforming to the expected gender role, and so you express your gender in some ways that aren't viewed as feminine by cultural standards. All of that can possibly impact - but is not necessarily related to - how you experience your gender internally. This is just my own observation, and it may be wrong, but I'm confident there are no more trans, nonbinary, or agender kids than there used to be. It's just that as much as there is still horrendous bias against people with non-conforming genders, it's not quite as taboo as it used to be, and there is both more information readily available, and more resources available so that kids who aren't comfortable with their birth assignment are more likely than they were in the past to realize there are other options than spending their whole life shoved into a gender that doesn't feel right to them. Some people have found this site has some basic helpful info for understanding the different facets of sexuality and gender (including a cute little coloring book!): https://transstudent.org/gender/
That's such an interesting difference between non-binary and agender, I had never really considered it before but I can see how it's different.
Yes, I think you are spot on with the conflation point. And the gender/ gender expression/ gender roles distinction is so helpful. That's exactly it, I'm fine with my gender but have zero interest in following societal gender roles since my natural gender expression is kind of all over the place ever since childhood. I think my husband is similar but perhaps holds more closely to the typical male societal role because I think for them society makes a much bigger deal of not adhering.....
I remember when my kid was really small, like three and a half, he had such wonderfully chaotic likes and preferences - he loved gems and jewelry, dinosaurs, fire trucks, unicorns, and the color lavender. One time he got into an argument with another equally tiny girl in a shoe store because she was telling him he should be taking the blue shoes, since he is a boy, and he was trying to explain to her he already has blue ones, and really likes the lavender Mary Janes. She protested 'but they're PURPLE!' to which he disgustedly retorted 'They're NOT purple, they're LAVENDER.' :) He also had a lot of arguments with his best friend over why he has unicorn figurines. The friend didn't know how to phrase the question but was presumably confused by the fact that the unicorns were seen as a girl toy... so he would keep asking 'Luka, why do you have a unicorn, Luka? Why do you have one?' And Lu looked at him with all the scorn a three and a half year old can muster and replied 'To make my house more beautiful, Gvozden.' He never took any bull :)
I absolutely agree with your last point too - I also think there were no fewer trans/ agender/ nonbinary people just like I think there were no fewer ADHD, autistic and other neurodiverse people... We just have the tools to understand and express ourselves better now... Besides society did so much covering up before - like 'the aunt that never married and was roommates with her best friend her whole life' yeah ok. Or the grandpa who always sits in the same chair and gets very upset if someone else sits in it and has a massive train collection in the basement, yeah totally neurotypical, sure.
There was way more pressure to conform so people conformed.
Thanks for the resource, I'll have fun browsing that!!
I love those stories about your son! He sounds adorable!
He is very much a character ❤️
Kat - I do not mean stereotypes. You are the one who is trolling, using disinformation embraced by people who's lack of empathy and imagination makes them fearful of people who experience the world differently than they do. Not everyone is just like you. Deal with it.
I blocked her, she was being extremely rude in everyone’s comments. I’ll debate anything but not while someone’s addressing me as ‘idiot’….
This is very nice way to frame it. As a gay man I had a youth with all people telling me that gay men weren't men really. They even had many names for it! As I've always felt liks a man without the need to behave like my soccer-playing peers, it took me some hard work and time to de-socialice and re-socialize myself.
And I'm not so sure the boys and girls growing up right now are doing so without pressures, expectations and reject.
Of course gay men are men, it's right there in the name :)
This obsession people have with telling other people who or what they are is very very strange. And yes, I absolutely think today's kids are facing it too, but it also feels like they are learning to support each other and stand up to it more than we did in my generation, and that's definitely a step forward.
It's very weird to me what things we tend to tie to the word 'man'. Like, 'courage', or 'confidence'. Like a woman can't be courageous or a man has to be confident. This very idea that you can 'lose your man card' if you don't act manly enough is again so much hidden misogyny.... Like you have to earn being a man, if not you get downgraded into lesser things, like women. It's a very toxic way of thinking and I am very glad we are slowly shaking it off. I wish it went a little less slowly.
Its not going slowly. In 'social' media it is going backwards thanks to the trans-troyan horse - back to square one of well known old homophobia. And, sadly, the warriors to this new crusade are mostly women.
But, outside the virtuality of internet, I think you are right: young girls and boys have a whole new language to fight for them in real, analog world.
yes the internet is becoming a separate country almost. With, like, all the worst people.
The trans thing is blowing my mind. It feels like some sort of religious fanaticism, the way these women go into hysterics over it. Running around screaming at people, calling everyone morons and idiots, it's really quite scary.
I think it also depends what circles you're in, like of course I see the ugly things but I have so many amazing people on my feeds with really healthy normal takes, then you run into the wrong comment section and you're like 'holy hell I took a wrong turn somewhere who the heck are these people'
This is so amazing. I was tomboyish too, and didn’t have girl family members to play with, just boys. I preferred boys because like you, I noticed they did fun stuff that I liked to do.
As I neared teenager times, my mother pushed REALLY HARD for “more femininity”, but I resisted just as hard and didn’t see anything the matter with how I was; I was clearly “a girl”. Same with physical development etc.
Now that I’m “old” I present woman way harder, but I really just want to be a forest witch and be left alone😂
I had the same path but without the pushing. I presented very tomboyish as a girl and then very womanish as a young woman when I had the freedom to choose my own wardrobe and such. Now I genuinely think I present as 'person', I love dresses but, like, I will shop for pants in the men's section... I also leaned into mildly alternative stuff like multicolor hair and tattoos and such very late in life, like around forty and onwards, and that has been very joyful. I think I sort of dress today like the kid me wanted to dress but couldn't swing it because she didn't have income hahah.
But I have definitely swung from hanging out with boys to having pretty much only women friends. Wasn't any sort of conscious choice, it just sort of flowed that way. I think I connected with women more than I did with girls because women have the freedom to be what the girls couldn't.... For a lot of us that self-consciousness is gone and we're just like 'listen this is me, deal with it' and it's much more conducive to friendships. Women make amazing friends, I wouldn't survive without mine.
What is a TERF? What is a troll?
Interesting perspective. While I know I'm male, I'm also far from a 'traditional masculine' stereotype. At the same time my black-and-white thinking has a difficult time untangling sex and gender being one-and-the-same or different things altogether. Though I do understand there are physical differences, and societal roles/expectations--mostly dated!.
Exactly, it’s a weird tangle and I think it comes mostly from the fact that we formed a society that wants to use gender to assure people are fitting inside their allotted box… I agree a lot of it is dated, but do you as a guy not encounter pressure to be tough (physically or emotionally), not complain, not show too much feeling? I feel that’s still everywhere, the ‘boys don’t cry’ thing. And for women it’s the ‘be elegant/ subtle/ well groomed’. These things are deep in our psyche.
I also have trouble divorcing sex from gender, I guess the way I see it is physical vs psychological - body parts vs how you feel about yourself? But yeah it’s all weirdly muddled and really doesn’t need to be.
Yeah, I agree. And on one hand, while categorizing people can be limiting, it can also be...helpful? With me, I sometimes find difficulty in ambiguity. Oh yes, those points are very relatable to me--I internalized them for so long that it broke me, and I became vulnerable, and am better for it. WAY too deep in our psyche, but then I think about characters like Aragorn and remember that to be stagnant is to be...unfulfilled.
I see what you mean there, too. Accepting notions at face value is tricky for me, especially if it goes against what I've been ingrained to think. And I realize that doesn't make it right, either.
that older girl from your childhood sounds really cool and I'm going to try doing that now when I speak Russian - sadly it will probably just make me sound even more like a foreigner 😅 the concept of non-binary or trans people in gendered languages is a fascinating one and it's interesting to see how some languages are adapting to it (eg. creating new pronouns for gender neutral as I think Swedish has done) while others still force the binary choice on their speakers
as a kid I personally loved hobbies from both sides of the gender equation - getting dirty in the garden but also making long stories about dolls - but didn't much like making friends with either boys or girls (probably more because of neurodivergence) 😂 as an adult I now identify as she/they and call myself cis but also sometimes non-binary? it's confusing and our society really conflates gender identity and gender expression and I often express my gender as very feminine and I have never felt like my body has any wrong parts but I have to say I don't feel like I'm a "woman" by society's standards and if given the choice I would gladly be neither male nor female but I still want to dress like a pretty girl?? because what are clothes but just cosplay?
at the end of the day though I just don't get why some people can't let it go and feel like they are entitled to know and pass judgement on what's in everyone else's underwear. it's just not that important!!
Clothes are absolutely just cosplay!! ⭐️ I definitely feel everything you wrote. I honestly understand our general confusion around gender way better than I understand why anyone actually cares. Like….. what do they think will happen if I don’t always think of myself as strictly female?? Isn’t it pretty normal to have mixed interests since the very idea of ‘girl things’ and ‘boy things’ as some sort of exclusive categories is sort of made up nonsense?
It is very interesting when you need to grammatically declare gender in every sentence. If you start to think about it it can suddenly feel very grating.
Beautiful post, thank you!
I was about 11 and growing boobs when I began to realise I was being “seen” differently to how I saw myself. I completely hear you. Gender is very unimportant to me, it plays no part in my sense of my self; the awareness that it is a categorisation others use on me is irritating at best. But it does take a mental effort to sort of ignore gender, as in ignore that I am gendered— it comes up in various ways through your life, like people making comments, “that’s unladylike!” like you mention. And I think, depending on your personal relation to gender, you will have differing responses— for some, gender IS important and thus it matters for their well-being to present their gender identity openly, have it be received clearly. This is something that a trans loved one in my life experiences, for eg.
Also I really resonate with ‘it takes effort to ignore gender’. It really does!! Like if you’re put in a box and you try to ignore the box… as you try to move around freely you WILL bump into the walls of the box…..
Another one I can immediately think of— having hairless legs if I want to wear shorts. I kind of let it get spiky and a bit obvious but then there’s a point where I just know if I don’t shave, people will think I’m gross. And it’s a completely unconscious knowledge, I don’t think to myself “people will think I’m gross”, I just start to feel that it’s time to maybe do the shaving thing!
Yap. I have sort of embraced the leg hair a bit, partly because with age it has calmed down a lot so I can… as a young girl I couldn’t have even considered it, for many reasons… but I do still feel bad sometimes, like sitting in a dentist’s chair the other day I thought uhh he’s gonna think I’m a cave person… So yeah, I’m fine with it being there but I have a feeling other people wouldn’t be…
Yes, both of those are so important!! I think many people feel the need to be reconfirmed in their gender - that’s why we have such popularity of gender affirming care like boob or nose jobs, hair implants, all the stuff that makes you more aligned with the ‘you’ you ideally want to be… but for many other people (like us) it’s kind of the opposite… For me anything that would make me move towards feeling more myself was usually towards a blurring of the gender lines rather than stepping deeper into my gender…
Basically I don’t think it’s bad we make categories but I do think it’s kind of harmful that we gatekeep certain categories and forcefully enforce others. When people are such beautiful and unique blends.
> Is being ‘a man’ or ‘a woman’ something intrinsically ours?
The answer is no. Gender is a social construct as the leftists say and as such it is subject to "negotiation". It's the same as being rich or tall or cool or any other identity. There's characteristics which the identity is sorta based on and people judge said characteristics and conclude their own version of your identity in their mind. Gender is just a more multifaceted identity than the ones I listed so people seem to act like it's not subject to regular identity mechanics.
So you’re saying it isn’t strictly about how you see yourself but also partially about how the people around you see you? That makes sense in a way. Like you can consider yourself rich but other people could agree or disagree with your view on it. That’s actually a very interesting way to look at it.
🙌
Lidija! Thank you for so beautifully putting into words the way I’ve felt for a while now. I fully understand why someone might go to great lengths to “feel” like their gender, but I personally don’t feel attached to mine at all, and would be perfectly content to just get rid of the concept of gender entirely. Aren’t most of us fluidly visiting “masculine” and “feminine” traits or interests or behaviors in some way?
Yes, it’s been exactly my experience that we are naturally drawn to both ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ things, and it’s really only societal pressure that makes men feel they shouldn’t ever seem soft or makes women feel they should never lift weights for fear of ‘getting too bulky’ or whatever (have been doing it for a few years and can guarantee no bulkiness yet)
I find it odd that we are so obsessed with gender definitions - or rather, I really don’t, because it’s the basic underpinning of patriarchy as a system. I was reading a lot recently about why patriarchal societies tend to defeat and conquer different forms of culture - if you are treating your women as a resource - meaning, keeping them sequestered, ‘protected’ and far from any dangerous activity, while also telling them their entire purpose is in childbearing, you end up with more people in your group. So you can overcome a society where men and women fight - and sometimes perish - side by side.
From that angle you can really understand why all the screaming about BIOLOGY becomes so important.
In another comment thread someone was explaining how no no no, you see your gender is defined by your reproductive role blah blah. Like…. yeah? My confusion about gender doesn’t come from me not being sure whether it will be me or my husband who gets pregnant…… It’s all the things we stick on around the idea of gender, and gender expression primarily. It’s the question of why some people need you to ‘prove’ what you are, like they’d take your pants down in the street if they were allowed to. What brings this type of violence? It’s a solid question.
Lady, I’m fine being berated and insulted by you in other people’s comment sections, but please go away with this rubbish from my actual page. You clearly didn’t engage with a single word I wrote. I have zero interest in your interpretation of biology. Literally zero. If you want to share something about how you personally feel about your personal gender, I will gladly listen. If not, goodbye, have a day.
Oh my STARS YES the hair! My hair has been every color there is, and many mixes of colors! I’m growing out black and white Disney Villain so I can do grey with white stripes and tips. The white stripes are real.
Omg that sounds epic. I am doing a lot of purple and blue and it makes me so happy. My husband doesn’t get it, he’s like ‘so you want people to look at you!?’ I’m like I don’t care if people look at me? I want to look at me!
I can so relate to what you're saying, Lidija. I was also a tomboy, and struggled with the gender stereotypes, even though I'm straight, and have no problem with anyone's gender identity.
I would love to see a generation of kids that are given absolutely zero gender expectations... I feel like we would see such interesting blends of likes, preferences and interests that we tend to define as 'for boys' and 'for girls'... Like the whole 'that's not for you' thing is so harmful I think. I was lucky no one really pushed me to adhere to the stereotypes.
That would be nice, I agree, Lidija. It would be so great to just be who we actually are. And I think as we get older we try to reclaim that stuff that was censored out of us. It seems a lot of men really struggle to be allowed to feel their feelings.
Yes I think women free themselves with age because we connect to each other and lean on each other and figure out which of our old beliefs were stupid and limiting… and men seem to be having a harder time with all that. Also in a sense society is more punishing towards them when they break norms…